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Transgender children
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Posted 7/4/12
Lets get this out of the way i came out to my family as transgender just last year and they took it in the worst possible manner and we are currently still having trouble. One of my parents arguments is that i am simply going through a fad of some sort and that they raised a boy. Personally i have known that i was meant to be a women since elementary school so i know for a fact that as children we know exactly who we are just as we do as adults and even more so but i can see were many people disagree. well here is my question: What is your take on transgender children? should you allow the child to transition or make them wait and see if that is what they really want? the age group i am referring to is 6-13 years of age. i know this is an odd topic but humor me will ya.
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Posted 7/5/12
I am not sure if this is a good place to ask such a serious question as that. I would talk to people who work with young people and see what they say.
Posted 7/5/12
I would say... If you could be any gender you want.. Then the person who has to choose the gender gets to be whatever gender they believe themselves to be. After all, your parents aren't going to be living your life. It's you, right? So make the right decision okay? And stick with it If you think you're a gal, then be a gal ;D (thumbs up) Good luck!
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Posted 7/10/12
the final decision should be made when theyre 18 imo, because kids are still growing and can change their minds about their gender. if a child changes gender way too early it will suck if they want to switch back at a later point in life,
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Posted 7/10/12

NavyBlack wrote:

the final decision should be made when theyre 18 imo, because kids are still growing and can change their minds about their gender. if a child changes gender way too early it will suck if they want to switch back at a later point in life,
But why does someone who's 18 know more about their gender than what they knew about it when they were 9 or even earlier? Children actually grasp the concept of gender at a very young age when they are able to recognize the fundamental difference between a man (their father) and a woman (their mother). Once that recognition is established there's really nothing gained by waiting until one is an adult in order to be able to be the gender one was meant to be, or primarily identifies as.

Besides, it's illegal to prescribe hormone treatments to children under 18, so all the adjustments that are allowed by law for a transitioning child are reversible, including puberty blockers which simply delay the onset of secondary sexual characteristics that are not necessary for healthy adult development.
Posted 7/13/12
It's the decision of every person to be what they want and a child should be allowed to make certain decisions. Maybe the transgender process would be better handled early on. However, I am not a doctor.
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Posted 7/14/12
There are gender psychologists and therapists who specialize in matters like this for a reason; our speculation has little meaning. For some, it may be best to start earlier. For others, it might be best to wait. If a young boy or girl shows signs of transgenderism, even if it is a "fad", it's important to consult professionals so that they understand what the young person really wants.

Myself, I haven't come out about to my family despite starting HRT, and it's going to be rough. I wish I would have understood what I was earlier, it might have been easier in the long run.

@OP, congratulations on coming out. You're braver than I am for now.
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Posted 7/15/12
i'm sorry that your family isn't taking it well. that must be hard on you. it doesn't change the fact that you are very strong for coming out to them, that takes a lot of guts

that said, it's hard to give a direct answer on this because it's not black and white. on one hand, i am all for the transgender community, and i think that there's no reason that anyone should feel like they can't question their sex and their sexuality, regardless of age or anything else. if someone who is physically a boy identifies mentally as a girl, then they're just as much of a woman as i am, no matter what. it's not like you want to be a girl, you just are a girl. i think that a parent should offer support to their child in any situation, and i don't believe in denying a child, or anyone ever of their identity

but the problem is that it's normal for children to crossdress and have an interest in things that apply to the opposite gender (hence tomboys. the only reason that you don't hear about reverse tomboys more often is because society hates women so while being a tomboy is okay, the other way around is less accepted because being feminine is viewed as a "weakness" but let's not get into that), so as a parent it'd be hard to know if your kid was unable to identify with their sex or if they were just going through a "phase." on one hand if you let them commit to it, they could grow out of it and then resent you for it, but if you restrict them then there's the possibility that they're not going to change, and once again they'll resent you. it must put a parent in a tight spot. even though in your experience the answer is obvious, i think it's safe to say it varies from case to case

while i can't speak for everyone because i know it must be a hard decision for a parent - one wrong move and you ruin a relationship with your kid - i guess if it were me what i would do is listen. i would ask them honestly what they felt. and if my little boy wanted to play with girls toys, i would let him. if my little girl wanted to be called "he" instead of "she" then i would do it. it's the best i can do. even if they grew out of it one day and felt uncomfortable, i think that would be easier to cope with than them never growing out of it and having to live with knowing that i didn't support them in something so important to their identity, and something that i make a point of supporting in the first place
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22 / F / Midwest
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Posted 7/18/12
NO!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS NO AGE!!!!!!!!

I hate that people still behave like this. Is it 1500?

Emphasizing male or female at any age is wrong. I was a "boy" until I hit the wall called puberty and was then just an angry monster because there are men with larger breasts than me. "Are you a lesbian?" "Why don't you date?" "How come you hang out with the guys?" "Do you really watch football?" "Why do you wear ties?" Oh, just shut up already! The application asks M or F and I want to write why the **** does that matter?

I was told it was very rare that females are admitted to sniper school because of their unstable emotions. I haven't cried since 1996 when my dad gave my first bike away without my permission. If my child (-13) said "Mom, I think I'm a boy/girl instead of whatever" I would seriously question what brought on the change but I wouldn't freak out about their decision. What concerns me is when my child (-13) says "Mom, I think I'm homosexual." I will say "That is impossible. In my house you don't think about anything sexual unless you can support a 4 person family without me" (4 in case of twins).

Maybe it is because my mother feels the same way as I that she prevented my father from enforcing his archaic ways. Although he was the main one changing me into his "son" by doing stereotypical things with me rather than my 5 other sisters. I suppose he had given up on having a son by the time he reached me.

Of course I say all this but eventually you will have to use a public restroom.

If you raise the child to think and reason, making the decision early is acceptable. If the child does not have the knowledge to act responsibly waiting is the only option. A child that is not mature enough to accept the parents decision is not mature enough to make their own. Each case is different and it needs to be clearly established why the transition is desired. This is "how I feel" is not an acceptable explanation nor is comparing oneself to stereotypes.

It seems your problem was that you waited so long to reveal these thoughts. I would be shocked if you came home dressed as the opposite sex when I had no idea you felt that way. I would be hurt that there was so little trust.
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Posted 7/29/12 , edited 7/30/12
I apologize in advance for how much I'm going to say on this subject... I'm no expert. Let me put that first and foremost. I am no expert. BUT all of what I say besides when I say it is an opinion is stuff that I have learned, and also opinions hold great value in these sorts of discussions. My credentials include being a current undergraduate beginning my 6th semester (credit wise) student at the University of Arizona double majoring in Psychology and gender+women studies. So again, I am no expert but I do know more about this subject than the average person. I've watched/read numerous documentaries/movies, books, and articles on trans, gender, sex, sexuality, humanity, etc Also my last note is that I'm doing all this on the fly. None of this is meant to be attacking at all and I would love to have expanded opinions on what I say or counter arguments. I love the exchange of knowledge especially on delicate subjects such as gender because the only way for people to stop fearing gender non-conforming individuals is to learn. People fear what they don't understand. SO....


tarakelly wrote:

I am not sure if this is a good place to ask such a serious question as that. I would talk to people who work with young people and see what they say.


While I agree that there are people who are much more versed in children/young people than a forum on crunchroll... I disagree that it would take a person who works with young people to answer this question. VERY FEW even trained psychologist, counselors, teachers, etc have much knowledge/experience on trans-subject. Not to say that all don't, but this subject is still very hidden from the majority of society in my opinion.


CandyPopShop wrote:

I would say... If you could be any gender you want.. Then the person who has to choose the gender gets to be whatever gender they believe themselves to be. After all, your parents aren't going to be living your life. It's you, right? So make the right decision okay? And stick with it If you think you're a gal, then be a gal ;D (thumbs up) Good luck!


YES YES YES! Thank you! So many thumbs up your way and good wishes.
Of course it is your life! You get to live it! It's YOUR body and no one else's to do anything with except YOU! What I'm saying here is even if being trans might be a choice... should that matter? NO. People make choices every day. It's the same way I hate the "They're just choosing to be gay" argument. That is not an argument! Even if it was a choice it shouldn't matter.
Secondly I love "you could be any gender you want." Gender is incredibly fluid. There is not just boy and girl. There are also those who feel genderqueer which could mean you feel as if you embody both genders or neither. It can mean so many things to so many different people. Gender is an entirely societal created devise to keep the male as the head of the household and the church in control (I can expand on this if I go back into my notes from reading several history of sexuality textbooks and taking a few classes about said subject - and also the reason I gave is only ONE of MANY reasons the government, church, military [basically those who hold power] have used gender to control and constrict the masses for their own wishes.)
Also it has been shown over and over again that biology LOVE diversity (see the movie "Middle Sexes"). So why is gender (and to some individuals sexuality) so black and white? One or the other? Some species of animals have more than one type of each gender, some fish change gender everyday, think about seahorses and how the male carries the child, etc etc. Nature shows us time and time again that our dichotomy of boy and girl is incredibly flawed. Even just think about intersex people, people born with not completely male or not completely female sexual organs and traits...If we take that into account and the general attitude of people toward gender, Biology is more accepting of more than just male and female than we humans can escape the gender binary of boy or girl.


NavyBlack wrote:

the final decision should be made when theyre 18 imo, because kids are still growing and can change their minds about their gender. if a child changes gender way too early it will suck if they want to switch back at a later point in life,


While I understand that 18 seems to be a comfortable number for most... why 18? Why is that when children are suddenly adults and can make all sorts of decisions about themselves?

***To actually answer the first question a bit (while still talking about the post I quoted)***
I think it depends a lot on the child and their own forcefulness and commitment to wanting to change gender. While it is true that kids are far more gender fluid that adults (hmm I wonder is that because we TEACH gender and it's not an inherently separating trait?) it takes a certain kind of bravery and conviction to stand up and say that you are not what you are constantly told you are. I'm a heavy believer that if the child has express any major/consistent wanting to change gender that hormone blockers should always be considered at the time of puberty. It saves a lot of money and grief later in life if the child actually is the gender they are claiming they need to be. While I agree it could be harmful for a child to go through high school with all their peers going through puberty and them not, it should still be the first step. This is where it gets tricky and such, when do you start putting the new hormone into the childs body? 15? 16? 17? 18? 19? 20? How about when the child has no reservations and is committed to their transformation. I understand that psychologist and counselors can provide some relief, the relief is mainly for the parent. Like I said a lot of people, even in professional settings, are still very undereducated as to what exactly trans and gender even means/represents.
Gender is a personal choice that one HAS to make because society has said you must be boy or girl. One or the other. Black or white. You're with us or you're against us. OVER AND OVER. When does it stop? When do we as humans get to just express ourselves for how we are?

While it would "suck" to have to change back later... I believe it was Susan Stryker (amazing woman) who said in an interview the documentary "Middle Sexes" something along the lines of: your body is your body. What you do with it, you do with it. It can be up to no one else to decide what is done to that body. If you wreck it, you wreck it and that's your own responsibility. But it will be your choice. (horrible horrible rough quote. VERY ROUGH. Just the general ideas I could remember - I'll make sure to post an exact quote later)

What does anyone else care if you fucked up deciding your gender (that you already had to decide just because society said so -- if you can't tell I'm a little against the idea of having a binary 2-gender system anyways) and need to change some more. Everyone's path in life is different, beautiful and unique. And NO ONE should have any say in how you conduct your life in my opinion.


Fear-and-Hope wrote:

It's the decision of every person to be what they want and a child should be allowed to make certain decisions. Maybe the transgender process would be better handled early on. However, I am not a doctor.


What I have to say here is just more general interesting knowledge. DISCLAIMER: None of this information is characteristically of ALL native american tribes. I wish I could name the exact tribes but my on hand knowledge/recall is not that good.
In at least one Native American culture, if a child (under whatever that tribes age of becoming a man or woman is) seems to be expressing traits and hobbies not fitting with their born sex then the tribe for their becoming a man ceremony will give the child a choice of two sets of toys (gendered) and have them choose and from then on they will be treated as their chosen gender. This age is usually somewhere between 10-16 and not much older than that. Also in some native american cultures there are what we now refer to as two-spirited individuals whom are usually regarded as sacred people to the tribe whom embody both genders.


LadyZephyria wrote:

There are gender psychologists and therapists who specialize in matters like this for a reason; our speculation has little meaning. For some, it may be best to start earlier. For others, it might be best to wait. If a young boy or girl shows signs of transgenderism, even if it is a "fad", it's important to consult professionals so that they understand what the young person really wants.


While I believe some interaction with professionals is important, I also believe that it's a case by case basis on whether a professional "psychologist" should intervene. A lot of Trans people find the psychological professional process to be humiliating and blocking. Plus the idea that if you are trans you must/should/needto/etc see a mental doctor just keeps the general stigma that being trans is a mental disorder, that somehow you are sick. I believe that a lot of the mental health professionals are usually helpful for parents to understand, it's also detrimental to a lot of trans people to have to be told that someone has to examine them and PROVE they aren't mistaken/lying/goingthroughafad/etc in order to transition.



Okay this is where I am going to stop. I've written way to much and probably already mentioned the things I would be mentioning to the other posts I didn't comment on. Feel free to debate with me I love it! Or even send a PM or anything.
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Posted 8/2/12
Awesome post MBogaert, I agree wholeheartedly.
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Posted 9/3/12
I know im kind of late on this post, but... Cant help myself when it comes to this, I think the first thing id like to point out is... we as humans are almost never completely satisfied with life, and actually having a point were you are is actually a serious problem, yeah theres always moments, how ever sweet they are, though id half to say half of life is learning to take things as they come the good and the bad, and just dealing with them in your own way, as we grow up, more and more, we become further opinionated and entwined in the world we live in, sometimes it corrupts us, sometimes we end up lost, and allot of the time, we try to prove ourselves to the world, i am the greatest, or i will do better, or even just saying i am catholic, yes at first its just a sentence a statement, but as time goes on you continually drag yourself away from who you really are and become what the world see's as you said you are, the problem isn't whether a child wants to be a boy or girl at that age, if that question even comes up there's already something else disturbing the child, i think the problem is, a balance of logic, concern and personal bias, if a child is able to take care of them selves and understands the basic mechanics of the world then sure, they can make that choice, Though what the world really needs is to just be themselves
-mbog feel free to email me manwithfrie@gmail.com If you wouldn't mind talking to me
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Posted 9/4/12 , edited 9/4/12
I think there's a bit of a disconnect between the concept of gender and the self-identification of people. Gender, in and of itself, is only a classification that determines reproductive ability. You are either male and provide genetic material for procreation, or you are female and accept genetic material and create a child from it. In this way, gender is purely scientific and leaves no room for interpretation.

Self-identity, however, is a completely different matter.Your self identity tells you how you wish to act, dress, who you wish to love, and all the other things that society attaches to specific genders. Gender identity is something that people can change if it is what they so desire, and to a lesser extent their own physical appearance. I've known several people who were 'born the wrong gender' and took steps to correct what they saw as a failure in nature. Others did not go nearly as far and only changed outward appearances. Regardless of this, it doesn't change the fact that they are who they are.

Age, however, plays no part in it. Personal identification starts basically when sentience is achieved. That, however, is different for everyone. When someone can think critically, formulate opinions independently, and make decisions without influence; that is when I feel they are fully aware and can make their own choices. Does that mean a 10 year old can't do it? Certainly not! I was much younger than that when I started thinking for myself... my childhood situation demanded it of me. In fact, I can safely say that by age 7, I was both self-aware and capable of making my own choices. But everyone's situation is different. No everyone reaches that point where they cross into self-awareness, and independence. However, that isn't to say that no one below 18 knows who they are, gender identity wise. 18 is simply a number that makes people comfortable.

So, in answer to the original poster's comment, there is no limit to the age one can self-identify with a gender, it simply depends on the person. If they can articulate why they feel that way in a logical manner, then they are at that point where they can make that call in sound judgment and should be allowed to do so.
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Posted 9/5/12

jonileth wrote:

I think there's a bit of a disconnect between the concept of gender and the self-identification of people. Gender, in and of itself, is only a classification that determines reproductive ability. You are either male and provide genetic material for procreation, or you are female and accept genetic material and create a child from it. In this way, gender is purely scientific and leaves no room for interpretation.

Self-identity, however, is a completely different matter.Your self identity tells you how you wish to act, dress, who you wish to love, and all the other things that society attaches to specific genders. Gender identity is something that people can change if it is what they so desire, and to a lesser extent their own physical appearance. I've known several people who were 'born the wrong gender' and took steps to correct what they saw as a failure in nature. Others did not go nearly as far and only changed outward appearances. Regardless of this, it doesn't change the fact that they are who they are.

Age, however, plays no part in it. Personal identification starts basically when sentience is achieved. That, however, is different for everyone. When someone can think critically, formulate opinions independently, and make decisions without influence; that is when I feel they are fully aware and can make their own choices. Does that mean a 10 year old can't do it? Certainly not! I was much younger than that when I started thinking for myself... my childhood situation demanded it of me. In fact, I can safely say that by age 7, I was both self-aware and capable of making my own choices. But everyone's situation is different. No everyone reaches that point where they cross into self-awareness, and independence. However, that isn't to say that no one below 18 knows who they are, gender identity wise. 18 is simply a number that makes people comfortable.

So, in answer to the original poster's comment, there is no limit to the age one can self-identify with a gender, it simply depends on the person. If they can articulate why they feel that way in a logical manner, then they are at that point where they can make that call in sound judgment and should be allowed to do so.
You do realize that very little you've said here has any semblance of commonality with documented research and scientific conclusions that have culminated into Official Reference Materials on gender, psychology, and sexuality. Perhaps you based it all on your own opinions and experiences but that tends to create misinterpretations and lapses in logic. It may look and sound good to you but has no relation with reality. And truthfully I think most of what you said is a complete nonsensical load of bull.

Posted 9/14/12 , edited 9/14/12
People should be allowed to do as they please. As long as it doesn't hurt anybody else, (which it shouldn't). do it if you want.
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